Tattiness

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jj2728
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Tattiness

Post by jj2728 » Fri Jul 31, 2015 2:55 pm

Been thinking about some of the recent discussions regarding the concours look, vs. realism as it were. Specifically MAKE UP and how there seem to be 2 divided camps with regards to that. I must say that the MAKE UP models in my collection are stunning, and seemingly accurate to the nth degree. I specifically purchased the 3 car set of the 1967 Daytona winning Ferraris because they were quite simply THE most accurate representations that I'd seen in any scale. And it was the smallest detail that sold me, the number and rondel sizes and placement. I'm very fortunate that my dad, having spent time with the team at that race, took many excellent photos that I extensively used to research them before I made my purchase. As an aside, while he was there he called us one afternoon and told me that there were a couple of people who'd like to say hello, next thing I know I'm talking to Chris Amon and Lorenzo Bandini. Quite the experience for a 12 year old and a memory that I'll cherish forever.

Having said that, here is where we get into a gray area. Back then, the cars were tatty. Over sprayed paint, dings, dents, duct tape etc. With very few exceptions (the Penske cars were always immaculate) that's how the cars were. I remember my first GP at the Glen in the mid '60s and thinking, wow, these cars look beat up!

If I wanted to, I could make most of my race cars appear 'period tatty' as it were and I've done that with a few, but not the ones I've paid the big bucks for. I am more than pleased with my collection of high end 1/43rds and wouldn't dare touch them. They are fine just as they are.

Are some cars just too concours and, wallets aside, prevent you from buying them? Just thought I'd toss this out there.....

The photo I've attached is from Louis Galanos and is a prime example of a rather tatty Matra in the Daytona pits towards the end of the race.
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Tom
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Re: Tattiness

Post by Tom » Fri Jul 31, 2015 4:26 pm

I've not attended any races in those days and I suspect the majority of today's collectors are no different. When you see the surviving classic racers today, they're always immaculate- that's the way most enthousiasts know them. I suspect that - apart from obvious difficulties in producing a realistic-looking 'tatty' scale model - most people prefer the cars to be perfect.

Me, I like race-damaged cars, but few look just right...

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jj2728
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Re: Tattiness

Post by jj2728 » Fri Jul 31, 2015 6:04 pm

Tom wrote:I've not attended any races in those days and I suspect the majority of today's collectors are no different. When you see the surviving classic racers today, they're always immaculate- that's the way most enthousiasts know them. I suspect that - apart from obvious difficulties in producing a realistic-looking 'tatty' scale model - most people prefer the cars to be perfect.

Me, I like race-damaged cars, but few look just right...
Good points Tom. SPARK did a very good race worn version of the 1969 Daytona 24 winning Penske Lola T-70. It's difficult to accurately depict 'tattiness' especially in 1/43rd. Here's a few examples of some IXO Fords that I did a while back.
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Jager
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Re: Tattiness

Post by Jager » Sat Aug 01, 2015 12:51 am

Tom wrote:I've not attended any races in those days and I suspect the majority of today's collectors are no different. When you see the surviving classic racers today, they're always immaculate- that's the way most enthousiasts know them. I suspect that - apart from obvious difficulties in producing a realistic-looking 'tatty' scale model - most people prefer the cars to be perfect.
Your right Tom. I think part of the problem stems from a tendancy to over-restore the 1:1's these days. However, I accept that if you have a car worth several million dollars, you don't want it to look like it just came of a second hand car lot. Nevertheless, its a shame that so of the 'character' of these cars is being taken away by restorations.

Consider this 1971 Le Mans Ferrari 512 driven to 3rd place by Posy and Adamovicz. Here's the car as it appeared at the 2013 Amelia Island Concours :

Image

....and here's how it looked on the afternoon of 13th June 1971 :

Image

I get that the owner wanted to restore the car, but they've been a little over-zealous in the restoration (as you have to be if you want to enter it in a Concours competition). The car is now of a much higher standard than when it raced, and don't get me started on the wrong colours for the periscope mirror or the rear winglets !

When Looksmart release their version of this car in a few months, I have no doubt it will closely resemble the restored car above. I appreciate modelling the car exactly as it ran in 1971 isn't practical, but maybe they could stike a balance between old and new. After all, its supposed to be a model of the car from 1971 Le Mans, not the car from 2013 Amelia Island. However it looks, it will still be 100% better than my old Brumm, so I've pre-ordered one sight unseen regardless.
“Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting.” - Steve McQueen

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Baxter
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Re: Tattiness

Post by Baxter » Sat Aug 01, 2015 11:09 am

That Ferrari can never recapture the character of this car, winner of the Vanderbilt Cup. Someone can look at that Locomobile and see the story behind it in their mind. They look at the Ferrari and only see a shiny car. I believe I've read that the 1967 Le Mans winning Ford is in as near to race winning condition as possible. I think they washed and waxed it though.

Image

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Jager
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Re: Tattiness

Post by Jager » Sat Aug 01, 2015 12:18 pm

Audi have also kept some of their Le Mans winners 'as raced'. This is their 2001 R8 :

Image
“Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting.” - Steve McQueen

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jj2728
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Re: Tattiness

Post by jj2728 » Sat Aug 01, 2015 1:42 pm

Here's a couple of pics taken by dad of the '67 le Mans winner at Watkins Glen during the 1967 USGP weekend. IIRC, Ford sent to the car for publicity purposes. As an aside, that's me, shielding my face from the camera and my mom in the white headscarf. As a lifelong Ferrari fan I was less than enthusiastic about the cars from Dearborn! Hasn't stopped me from collecting each 1/43rd winning Ford from '66 through '69 plus all of the other factory and Gulf MKIIs, MKIVS and GT-40s....they make great door stops!
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Stu935
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Re: Tattiness

Post by Stu935 » Sun Aug 02, 2015 3:49 am

It's a shame when 1:1 race car collectors fully restore a race car, it also seems quite odd. If a race car is bought purely for a collection rather than to be raced at historic events, surely the race finished/original car is far more prestigious than a nut and bolt brand new looking restoration car.

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Alfaholic
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Re: Tattiness

Post by Alfaholic » Sun Aug 02, 2015 6:09 am

jj2728 wrote: As a lifelong Ferrari fan I was less than enthusiastic about the cars from Dearborn! Hasn't stopped me from collecting each 1/43rd winning Ford from '66 through '69 plus all of the other factory and Gulf MKIIs, MKIVS and GT-40s....they make great door stops!
:lol: :lol: :lol: Priceless. As a long time Ferari fan I have a begrudging respect for the GT40s, and they are a good looking car. Although with the money Ford spent it's no surprise they won w few races! It all kicks off again next year in the GT class, so let's hope it doesn't become a battle of the cheque books.

Were you shielding your face in case some of your mates saw you looking at a Ford?
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Baxter
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Re: Tattiness

Post by Baxter » Sun Aug 02, 2015 2:59 pm

Stu935 wrote:It's a shame when 1:1 race car collectors fully restore a race car, it also seems quite odd. If a race car is bought purely for a collection rather than to be raced at historic events, surely the race finished/original car is far more prestigious than a nut and bolt brand new looking restoration car.
Race cars, especially the older ones, pass through many garages before they arrive at the collector's doorstep. They go through several updates and paint jobs and need to be restored to get them back to the specification from when they were most famous. Even if you're a manufacturer and just won Le Mans, you may be competing for the season championship and can't afford to pull this car and put another into the rotation. I'm guessing that you already know this but it didn't come to mind when you posed your question.

davylemans
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Re: Tattiness

Post by davylemans » Tue Aug 04, 2015 7:09 am

Stu935 wrote:It's a shame when 1:1 race car collectors fully restore a race car, it also seems quite odd. If a race car is bought purely for a collection rather than to be raced at historic events, surely the race finished/original car is far more prestigious than a nut and bolt brand new looking restoration car.
Stu, I totally agree with what you're saying. But, how many collectors, collect just for the sake of collecting. It seems considering the money that has to be paid, even for a race used car, most collectors want a return on their investment. In other words, a profit. So, some degree of restoration is necessary to maximize that profit. There aren't many collectors out there who can afford a 1:1 race used car and just add it to their collection.
Dave

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Jager
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Re: Tattiness

Post by Jager » Tue Aug 04, 2015 11:45 am

davylemans wrote:Stu, I totally agree with what you're saying. But, how many collectors, collect just for the sake of collecting. It seems considering the money that has to be paid, even for a race used car, most collectors want a return on their investment. In other words, a profit. So, some degree of restoration is necessary to maximize that profit. There aren't many collectors out there who can afford a 1:1 race used car and just add it to their collection.
Dave
Dave, in my experience, 1:1 collectors often lose money restoring classic cars......the cost of the restoration exceeding the value of the car. Many collectors simply do it for the love, not for the money, or end up in a spiraling money pit where the cost of the restoration blows out to be much more than they budgetted because of hidden problems.

Here's an interesting article on the restorartion of a 1940's Mille Miglia Alfa Romeo. Full credit to the efforts these guys went to to get information on the car before starting the restoration.

http://www.velocetoday.com/historical-r ... ofen-alfa/
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Baxter
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Re: Tattiness

Post by Baxter » Tue Aug 04, 2015 3:50 pm

Jager wrote:Dave, in my experience, 1:1 collectors often lose money restoring classic cars......the cost of the restoration exceeding the value of the car.
Collector automobiles are a cyclical market and sales must be timed well to make money. We're currently in a down period. Many people enter the hobby when it's on an uptrend and a quality restoration takes several years. With more cars undergoing restoration, shops are overwhelmed and projects take longer. By the time a project is done, the market has often peaked. Records are still being set at auction but we don't know how much was spent before the car was put up for sale. In addition to the general cycle, there are trends for specific types like Ferraris, muscle cars, classic cars, etc.

The guiding hand is the collector car market is the age of the car vs buyer. People who connect with Seventies race cars are dying off and those cars will depreciate. Seventies street cars will hold their value a little longer because some can be seen as art objects. Eventually the pool of desirable Seventies cars will shrink to ten or twelve.

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